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Astro.Geekjoy Fundraiser
Jeff Floats the Idea Otto Fills Folks In First Look at the Scope Ends and Means... Stone Soup T Gets Down What's it Worth to Ya? T's Heartfelt Appeal And the Contributions Begin... A Date With Vicki (Or, How I Survived A Night On Equatorial Mount) Fundraiser Over...
Jeff Floats the Idea
Greetings Folks!
Astro.Geekjoy needs you! My friend Dave (who hosts our server) has been footing the bill long enough and T and I are going to do something about it! For you see it all started with an email from Otto...
Otto, please tell everybody what you told me in that email (hint, hint, about a certain telescope for sale...)
jeff
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Otto Fills Folks In
Jeff is referring to a telescope ad I saw on astromart for, what, we think, boils down to being a Japanese sourced (Vixen) 4 inch telescope for $180 plus shipping. The thought crossed my mind that this could be purchased and then resold for a profit.
I believe where Jeff is going with this, is that we use our corporate expertize to find such deals on the various classifieds and auctions; purchase them, and then use the funds to finance certain worthy projects of astrogeek. This may be a good idea.
First qualification; I know there is a tendency in me to inform a seller that the price she is asking is well below what she could command; even when I am interested in a thing. Do we have a moral obligation to do this in some way shape or form with each potentially successful transaction?
~Otto
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First Look at the Scope
Hi All,
Thinking the scope was an F5 version, my initial response to Otto was that it might make a good "wide field sweeper" to augment his MK-67 (which is somewhat FOV-challenged). Otto then replied that it was the F10 version and that he would get only about a degree and a half through his 40mm Plossl.
Otto also informed me that the achromat was not a Vixen but a Celestron HD-102. My interest sagged - but I went ahead and did some research on the internet. There I learned that earlier HD's were OEM'd by Vixen of Japan and that these used "all metal" tube construction while the Synta-OEM'd units included plastic components. Checking Ed Ting's site, I found that the optics on the Vixens rated 4/5 while those of the Synta's were 3/5 - passable but nothing special...
In that email Otto also added some photos made by the then owner - a fellow by name of John.
Here are the images:
and
I then emailed John with questions concerning the scopes construction. It was exteriorly all-metal - the dew shield being the critical signifier. (The shield and lens cell is plastic on Chinese units.)
Along the way I learned that John lived in Ohio and T was dragged into the whole picture.
T then arranged to get together with John and look the scope over as Astro.Geekjoy's representative. Perhaps T will now tell us what happened next...
Carpe Threadum,
jeff
PS: You asked about the ethicality of buying scopes that are obviously underpriced and reselling them. It's possible that a Vixen sourced HD-102 is worth as much as three or four times what John sold it to Astro.Geekjoy for ($200). It's also possible that we may not be able to sell it for any more - or even less than that amount. In dealing with John, I informed him that he may in fact have a true Vixen Optical version of the scope. Since I have no idea how much the scope is actually worth, that was my only ethical obligation in the matter. He himself had advertised it as a "Vixen" and once he found out it may actually be a Vixen he started to have second thoughts...
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Ends and Means...
Regardless of the "ethicality", as Mark Twain supposedly said, "The deed is done." And with that, I think AstroGeekJoy has latched onto a nice piece of equipment to make use of as AGJ (astrogeekjoy) sees fit. I like that nice bit of detective work you did on the cap.
And another thought about the ethics of it all...if someone reconsiders a sale due to information provided by the seller, then it would seem to me that that information is worth something as well; so it is all probably fair in the end.
Otto
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Hi Otto,
T actually gave the man 20 dollars more than John asked for originally (on my request). 200 is all I would have spent anyway. John also had a CG4 mount with slow motion drives (which I would really have been pleased to get too) but sold it after quoting 400 for the whole enchilada. This was OK by me, because I specifically said to go ahead and sell all or part of the scope should he get a better offer - up to the point where T was scheduled to inspect the scope. Once T's time was commited, I asked John to give us first right of refusal. And John held true to that.
My soul is satisfied and my heart remains unsullied - that's all I would ask of others should they get involved in similar AGJ fundraising activities...
Carpe Threadum,
jeff
NOTE: T did not pay the extra twenty. It was felt that the scope had been "stripped" of all accessories and therefore did not warrant a gratuity of this nature...
* ** *** **** *** ** *
Howdy, Guys!
Boy, you can sure tell you two aren't into the merchandising/retailing business!
Have no mercy, Gentlemen...
Would I tell some poor astronomer's widow who had no insurance and seventeen kids to feed the scope she was selling was worth more? Yes. But only after she showed me his grave and introduced me to her kids. Then I would tell her she would be farther ahead to donate the scope to an educational institution for full value and get a tax break.
For one reason or another, people sell their telescopes. Why? Bottom line - They need money. What they need the money for, or how they came about that need is no concern of mine. They have something I want, and I have something they need. Fair enough.
I think supporting astro.geekjoy is a noble cause, and one that benefits us all because we enjoy it. The only way we can do this Gentlemen..
Is to make a profit.
"Yes, I'll take it... Here's the cash... Thank you... Pleasure meeting you..."
And rock ON!
~T
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Well, there you have it ladies and gentlemen, we now know that T wears a big shark fin down the middle of the back!
Actually T's point is well taken. John didn't contact Astro.Geekjoy and say "Please evaluate my scope so I can wring every possible penny out of it when I try to sell it!" And 'Ol ASG trucks two hours down the road and says. "Yep startests, 1/5th wave, has nominal purple fringing, but resolves barges and white ovals in Jupiter's NEB. It's only worth 50 bucks, but I'll give ya a hundred cause I like ya!"
Frankly at this point all I know about the scope is what T emailed me:
howdy, mate...
there be scope here! no matter how much magnification i threw at it, i could maintain a razor sharp image. by focusing on trees, i could either set down on one single bud... or drop the focus another way and pick up leaves from trees far behind it.
the scope displays far more purple in daylight images than green... but no "drag" on the image. there is a plastic collar around the objective, but the cell itself is aluminum. it has been used, no doubt. but cared for well. there are no scratches or signs of deterioration on the objective, and the focuser works most smoothly.
i have it set up on the 4.5's mount right now. by theAstronomer engineering techniques, simply wrapping a towel around it's midsection allows it to set comfortably in the 4.5's scope ring. i have looked at the moon so far... (hey! on my hands and knees!) and am waiting for the planets to drop a bit lower so i don't have to lay on the lawn! (and yes, i am bright enough to extend the tripod legs...)
only one problem. no finderscope. too late this evening to try to put the laser reflex on it, but rain tomorrow will give me time. i'm just anxious to see what it does on the planets!
let's give it a go... shall we?
yours,
~T
Hope ya don't mind me quoting ya T, but you and me be buds! Now anybody have any idea of what we ought to do with the thing?
Carpe Threadum,
jeff
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Stone Soup
Yo,
Anybody ever hear the story called "Stone Soup"?
Well, it seems this itinerant pilgrim came upon a small town during her wanderings. The towns folk all looked a bit hungry and under-nourished. On her back, our pilgrim carried a kettle and a special stone. Gathering some kindling and fallen branches, soon she had a fire going. The kettle was filled with water and as the water came to boil the stone was dropped in the water.
One of the townsfolk came forward to find out what was going on. Our pilgrim replied: "Making a stew, would you like some?"
"Oh yes!" came the reply.
The pilgrim drew some of the boiling water into a small bowl and said: "Not ready yet, needs some herbs and spices."
Our inquistor ran off to collect some of what was needed.
After hearing about the stew, others approached. Our pilgrim went on to request one ingredient after another - carrots, onions, cabbage, tofu (the original story has meat - but I'm a veggie...) etc.
Soon our pilgrim drew a final bowl and started handing it around. The stew tasted great and there was plenty of it too...
Carpe Threadum,
jeff
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T "Gets Down"
(i don't call the dob the "great white" for no reason, eh? )
OK... Now that I've had my fresh asparagus, parsley red potatoes and 4 oz. of lean, grilled cube steak (i am NOT a veggie...) I suppose ya'll want to hear about this scope, right?
As soon as I pinged the dew shield with my fingers setting it up, (fancy that, me flicking it that way...) I knew what we had. Now, to see if it had been cared for...
No mount? No problem. I brought the one for my 4.5. Ooops! Wrong size? No problem. Let's just try wrapping a towel around the middle, ok? (and wouldn't you know? for some strange reason i had it angled toward the sun...)
Looking across the objective lens, I could see no signs of scratching or deterioration of the coatings. Someone had tried to clean it at one point in time, but hadn't harmed it. Next step? Optics test. I am not a scopist. But what I am is a person who has looked through enough "bad" telescopes to know one. As my letter stated, I put this baby through every range of magnification I had at my disposal and could maintain razor sharp images... Be it on a tree bud a hundred yards ahead of me, or on a branch a mile away. Yes, it had been used. But it was not abused...
Making small talk, I told the man we would take it, packed it in the Camaro and handed him two one hundred dollar bills. (hey, i'm a tipper. shoot me...) To make a long story short, we continued our conversation elsewhere, and I left with $20.
(can you hear the "jaws" music yet? da dum... da dum... dadum... )
AFTER I rode the Harley for awhile when I got home, I set the scope up for a test drive. Holy KATZ! I hit every position known to man, and a few I didn't realize I could still do trying to view through this long @** scope! No finder means "reflex" only... The next problem? My arms weren't long enough to tighten the knobs when I did find something! But... you know me, eh? I always manage.
The Moon? Eh. Nice, sharp images... Exactly what I'm used to seeing. A bit of a fish around, and viola! Jupiter. Jupiter up one... two.. up three... barlow... WOW!!! I must say I am impressed that a 4 inch aperature refractor gives an image as good as a 12.5 reflector! Yesssssss....
I was on my hands and knees... I was on my side... I was on my back... (hey, a diagonal would be nice too, ya' know?) at one point I was on my belly with my neck turned in a most decidedly uncomfortable fashion.
But the scope ROCKS, Gentlemen. From the M35 to the M44... From the M3 to the M81 and M82! And the legendary "airy disc"? THAT is what held me captive...
What can I say? Besides...
"da dum... da dum... dadum... dadum dadum dadum..."
Turn up the rock and let's roll!
~T
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What's it Worth to Ya?
Yo,
I'm starting to salivate now...
OK: Before T does one more thing with this scope (I mean puts anything on it - finder, diagonal, a set of eyepieces) - what's it worth?
How much might you pay for a 102mm F10 refractor that does almost anything a quality APO does except it ain't an APO.
(I remind everybody that certain nameless AstroTalk members spent more than 2K for their APOs. I also remind folks that a brandy new ST80 sells for about $180 while a new HD-102 sourced from China costs maybe 50 bucks more.)
Did I hear "about 200 dollars"... Well then now you understand there ain't any profit in this scope as it is. It has to prove itself worthy...
And I ask you, how does it do that?
Carpe Threadum,
jeff
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What can we get for this 102HD that T has now proven has very good optics and which matches the performance of an apo? was the question which Jeff asks. The first thought that comes to mind is "copy" as in, what we say about it when it goes to astromart or astronomy mall or ebay, and what type of pictures we put up with it if any. And then I think of questar...for years, their ads have sold a thousand dollar scope for four times as much. And I think of the MK67 which has no copy that I can find and which sells for about half to a third of what a similar acting apo does.
This next comment may or may not be helpful...it is in no way meant as a criticism...in no way...it is meant solely as a comment to help us ascertain who is our market to aim copy at....to me this scope is worth $100 because I don't have any desire to possess it and it would have to earn over a $100 profit for me to bother with all the hassle of trading it. So, the Otto you know, is not the type of person we're aiming our advertising at.
Does this help in any way?
~ Otto
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I wish I had thought of AGJ Inc. about a month ago. There was this guy in eastern Kentucky who was selling a gently used 10 inch schmidt cassegrain with mount for $350. I wasn't interested. Told him it was, in my opinion worth more, etc.
~ Otto
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Good Input Otto,
Any scope only has value, when it adds value. What kind of observer is likely to find a scope like this appealing?
And how do we reach this observer?
And what exactly do we say to ensure that this hypothetical observer understands that this particular scope will meet their need?
One thing: Who'd a thought that T would get so excited about looking at the night sky through this scope?
Any thoughts?
And yes that 10 inch SCT might very well have been another - even superior value-adder.
Let's keep our eyes and our minds open to the possibilities.
Carpe Threadum,
jeff
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AGJ inc. ALERT......ebay.com.....takahashi MT-130mm, for immediate sale st $900.
Otto
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Oh, hey... No problem! I'm sure the bank would understand why I needed the mortgage and car payment money for an investment. LOL!
~T
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T's Heartfelt Appeal
Hi, Ottoman.
In reading back over this topic, there is a part of you I agree with. I really have no desire to "own" the Vixen. This IS a rather special telescope, because with a bit of initiative... It could be part of us all.
Once upon a time, someone with hopes and dreams owned the Vixen. It was cared for lovingly and well... Along the line, it was stripped of all it's finery to make a profit. And all that is left is the perfect shell of what was.
I think, perhaps, if the scope was handed to some people... They would have told you it was worthless. "It's not mounted, it doesn't have a finder, and there's no eyepieces." But what it has is a perfect set of optics and a soul...
From day one, the Vixen resonated with memories of its' "glory days". It is charmed, Otto. Every conceivable obstacle to using it was placed in my path... and every one of them conquered. The Vixen didn't mind if I wrapped a towel around its' middle to make it fit my mount... It whispered in my ear that I could gently loop a tow chain through the mount's legs to make it more stable. It willingly accepted all of my eyepieces... from the most lowly - to the best! And handed me back superb images... It challenged me physically to use it... And made me forget my discomfort the moment I looked into the eyepiece.
And even though it has no finder... The Vixen knows its' way to the stars.
This humble telescope embodies what we ARE... what AstroTalk is. By itself, rather plain and uninteresting. But when touched by the loving hands of ALL of us? An instrument of true beauty! Through the Vixen's eyes I have seen planets and the Moon... nebulae and open clusters... galaxies and globulars... a Comet and Airy Disc... All the while I used it, knowing this scope IS a part of AstroTalk.
How I wish I could put it in each and every member's hands! Let every one of you use it, and give part of yourself to it. For when it leaves me? It will leave with one of T's eyepieces...
In the very near future, the Vixen will pass from a Stargazer's hands to that of a Scopist. What this person finds will be different from me... But they will give part of themselves.
Just as I have.
I urge any of you who have been following the story of our fundraiser to look into your own hearts and accessory case. What do YOU have that can become part of AstroTalk's Vixen? There will come a day that this scope will be sold to support our community board, but it will not go into hands that will take it apart for a profit. We shall chose to whom it is passed on...
For it will be a part of us all.
As Always,
~T
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Hi All,
A fine telescope is more than the sum of its parts. Object glass, optics tube, finderscope, visual back, and focuser in their sum do not a "telescope' make. The "glue" that binds these elements together emanates from the eye of the beholder. Before T travelled to Toledo, this particular elder-scope Celestron HD102 was "just another telescope".
T has now made it much more...
But the task is just beginning. Someday, somewhere some amateur astronomer will take possession of "Vicky" and add that final touch called "home".
But the scope that destined observer receives will be a fully realized instrument. Vicky will lack nothing needful to reveal the wonders of the Night Sky...
This is where we all are called - and probably few are chosen. Vicky is now incomplete and can not as of yet fulfill her destiny. There are needs:
- Finderscope with mounting bracket
- 90 degree diagonal
- Full set of eyepieces
- Barlow lens
- A CG4 equivalent (or better) mount
- 4 inch tube rings
Certainly these things may be "purchased". But how much better to receive them? Each a gift, each like Vicky herself, unused and waiting to find a home...
Should you or someone you know posess any such, please contact me by email at Astro.Geekjoy to arrange delivery.
Thanks,
jeff
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And the Contributions Begin...
Hi All,
Received an email from Otto on Saturday, April 27, 2002. Arrangements are now being made to ship two eyepieces (4mm ortho and 38mm Rini) and (most importantly) a Celestron mirror diagonal to begin Vicky's healing process... I have pledged a 25mm and a 9mm Plossl. One barlow, and either a 7mm ortho or 14mm Plossl is still needed to complete the kit. This should allow magnifications of 26, 40, 111, 150, and 250x. Magnifications which should enable this scope to cover everything from rich-field sweeping to Dawesian double star resolution...
Any additional eyepieces, diagonals, etc. folks want to contribute may be stocked toward future ventures of this type - should we succeed in this one!
jeff
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A Date With Vicki (Or, How I Survived A Night On Equatorial Mount)
As a regular observer with a Dobsonion telescope, and a small refractor on an alt-az mount, I haven't tried to use an equatorially-mounted telescope since my hated C-8.
So it was enthusiasm and a little trepidation that I borrowed AstroTalk's excellent 4" EQ-mounted refractor. Adding to my unease was the scope's incorrect image finder. I am spoiled by use of both unit-power and 8x correct image finderscopes.
Polar alignment was accomplished by uncapping PA scope caps in mount, and sticking Polaris in middle of the hole. This amount of polar alignment worked very well.
At first I was very frustrated in finding objects. I blamed the equatorial mount, but as time passed I realized the trouble was with the straight-through finder! To deliver the poor observer from yogic contortions, a 45 degree diagonal is imperative for this scope. Once I realized this, I quit using the finder, instead starhopping with low-power eyepiece. Vicky's medium focal length of 1000mm made this feasible.
As an altaz user, I "discovered" that on an eq mount, one axis draws circles around the North Star, while the other axis moves towards and away from Polaris.
I saw Polaris' companion well at 47x, a sign of good things to come with Miss V.
Scooting my bench around the telescope as I observed, I checked out Vega, looking for telltale chromatic aberration in this achromat. Lots of purple seen, but I'm not sure that the scope/eyepiece was fully cooled down.
Grand globular cluster M5 was behind a tree. Darn!
Next I observed the Whirlpool Galaxy, M51. No spiral structure seen, but its companion galaxy showed easily, as did mottling throughout the galaxy.
Turning South, I found globular cluster M107 (for the first time) in southern Ophiuchus. A nice sprinkling of stars!
The Lagoon Nebula M8 was surprisingly nice, showing bright and contrasty with lots of crisscrossing dark lanes. Trifid Nebula M20 showed, along with tiny double star on one of its lobes (I saw color difference between primary & secondary components of this double). As a side note, the Trifid Nebula is the only nebula of which I can discern any color in my 12.5" reflector. Just a bare hint of this bilobal color differentiation in the 4" refractor.
Double-double Epsilon Lyrae split beautifully at 250x.
Gamma Delphinus, a lovely pastel-colored double star, showed clear color, but maybe not quite so vivid as I've seen.
On the other hand, I stumbled across another Smyth double star, either 15 Aquilae (while trolling for Wild Duck open cluster M11 in Scutum), or 57 Serpens (while trolling for globular cluster M14 in Ophiucus). This double star showed clear pretty orange and brown components.
Overall, Vicky's stars are very sharp. I expected this sharpness to impress on M11, but view was disappointing compared to my 12.5".
The C4 mount was very stable.
(Aside: Music listened to: Time-Life's Treasury of Bluegrass (love that Rocky Top!!), followed by Holst' The Planets).
Missed M22. Darn!
Overall viewing through Vicky is very comfortable, if just a tad low (maybe raise tripod legs 3 inches or so for comfort).
I really enjoyed simply turning right ascension knob West to continually track in objects.
Vicky's views were excellent- contrasty and sharp. She may exhibit bright false color on bright objects.
Seated viewing is comfortable and enjoyable. She needs that 45 degree finder diagonal though! :)
- (Fellow SCAC and AstroTalk Member) Mark
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Fundraiser Over...
Well folks. It's over. I cut a check to Astro.Geekjoy's (former) webserver owner and took Vicki into home and heart - permanently. My thanks to those of you who contributed accessories. They remain as part of Vicki's kit. And you will be with us whenever Vicki and I share the night sky.
As a result of this experience, I have to say that should astro.geekjoy lose its current gratis webserver, then that'll be it. Nothing lasts forever.
Meanwhile, as you continue to browse the internet and find websites to your liking - astro or otherwise - keep in mind that there are reasons why those ads keep popping up on your PC. It's rare to get "something for nothing" in this world. And when you do get it, its because somebody loves what they do enough to make a personal sacrifice.
Of course, there are no guarantees that such folks will always be around. But as long as there is an internet, there will be plenty of fine folks out there in Cyberspace who feel called to share what they love with others.
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Email: Astro.Geekjoy